CC's ride report!

Questions and comments about converting to beefier forks..
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Indawoods
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CC's ride report!

Post by Indawoods »

RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! RIDE REPORT! :supz:
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Post by skipro3 »

Usually when CC has nothing good to say, he says nothing. I don't think he likes the forks at all!!! I bet he ends up selling the set-up so he can buy a new cylinder and head. :wink:
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Post by Indawoods »

Don't know about that... I went to his bike profile and it appears he has been keeping a diary there on his forks and carb/fuel setups. Sneaky Devil! :twisted:
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Post by canyncarvr »

I've mentioned the results here'n there...

There is considerable fussing-with to be done in the valving department. I'll mess with 'em some before I send them off to a knowledgeable tuner, Wilkey (MX-Tech) or Wilson (House of Horsepower). They're considerably too stiff in the slow compression stuff (compared to my KDX Wilkey'd forks) to suit me.

But...

That stiffness is considerably offset by the good stiffness/rigidity/strength of the KX forks in general. Ski had mentioned some time ago the flex in the KDX forks but I'd never actually seen it myself....relegated handling offenses in the front-end to 'that's the way it is.'

Not so.

I also had a rather dim view of my WER...but that turns out to have been largely from the KDX forks, too.

The WER can actually do its job now...a couple of clicks actually make a difference. The bike is actually protected from abrupt fork º changes by the damper. It did a poor job of that before when it had to deal with the ..shall we say...'compliance' of the KDX forks.

HSC stuff is actually not too far off from my Wilkey'd KDX forks. Not bad at all. I may not be able to 'valve' out LSC impact..as that's not where it's happening, but I'll mess with it some.

Of course, there is the reason (mine anyway) for changing in the first place...the underhang of the KDX fork. Couple-three times I've been in spots I would've hung up for sure...in one case I likely would have biffed it with the KDX fork down-lo. That of course is gone.

The whole LSC thing may be part of the stiction inherent in the USD forks.

Ski sent me a good number of things to check out to lessen stiction...pretty much already been done, but I need to check it out again. Things like fork heighth exactly the same...re-center the wheel.

Speaking of which...for you folks with the inside-hex axle, what do you use to fit/hold that whilst you tighten the axle nut?

Of course...there is the cool factor. Gotta have that, right?

They look very cool!!!
Last edited by canyncarvr on 02:26 pm Jul 25 2005, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Indawoods »

canyncarvr wrote:Speaking of which...for you folks with the inside-hex axle, what do you use to fit/hold that whilst you tighten the axle nut?
Get it snug... tighten right fork bolts onto the axle, tighten axle... release tension on axle from fork bolts. :wink:
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Post by canyncarvr »

Sorry..but I gotta ask about the 'right' part...

Which 'right' is that?

I'd rather use a suitable tool to hold the axle by its end than chance any rotation OR even apply torsional force to the fork...


...but, what you describe is the way I did it...to a 'T'.

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Post by Indawoods »

I couldn't think of any other way of doing it. I sure don't have an allen wrench that big!

My right.... you know, bassackwards from everyone else! From sitting on the bike right.... :cool:
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Post by canyncarvr »

Seems I went through this once just for the purpose of figgering it out...and found something that fit...now I don't remember what it was! Some kinda socket tool out of some other bike toolkit or something.....

Come to think of it, I tightened the LH (looking at it!) side because I wanted the axle to be able to move in the RH (looking at it!) clamp if it needed to. Tightening the axle against an unmoving (unlikely considering the force involved) RH (looking at it!) cap would be a waste of time.

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Post by KDXGarage »

They're considerably too stiff in the slow compression stuff (compared to my KDX Wilkey'd forks) to suit me.
then
I may not be able to 'valve' out LSC impact..as that's not where it's happening, but I'll mess with it some.
Which is it? :grin:
I'll mess with 'em some before I send them off to a knowledgeable tuner
That's the spirit. :wink:
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Post by skipro3 »

Like CC mentioned I offered some suggestions for fork stiction. I'll mention them here, (except those things I think have already been covered) and see if there are any other stiction reducing ideas out there.
1. forkslyk. I bought some off eBay and offered to pass on to CC for his evaluation. Same offer to anyone else out there with the KX forks and needing to find a more acceptable level of stiction. I've applied it 3 times to my forks and have at least 3/4 of the stuff left. A provided cleaning solution applied, followed by the forkslyk with a small cotton ball twice to each leg results in only a few drops of the product used. I suspect that if you have several bikes lined up in a row and used the same applicator, the slyk would cover at least 2 dozen sets of forks. But since it is applied annually, much of it is tossed with the applicator after the task is done.
2. Proper (what ever the hell that is) tensioning and torquing of the forks pinch bolts at the triple clamp and the axle. I used the "keep everything loose; apply the brake to center the rotor and caliper; then tighten lower, upper t-clamps and finally the axle. Variations of that are reported here and elsewhere.
3. Oil viscosity and level. Maybe not so much stiction, but certainly the LSC can be affected by this.
4. New and / or heavy duty fork seals. New seals and heavy duty new seals especially will take some time to break in. Before they do, the stiction is just the worst thing I've ever seen. My Race Tech seals ($25 a set) took over 500 miles to break-in.
5. Experimenting with a 2 stage stack. Not that I would do this, but it's an option. You can have a very light stack for the initial compression dampening that stiffens up about mid travel of the fork. Which brings me to:
5. Fork spring rating. A stiffer fork will allow for a longer travel during the bump absorbtion by not having as much sag as a lighter weight spring. I know from experiance with my KX forks that this one is true. My KX125 forks were .38 from the dealer (per buykawasaki.com) and race sagged at just under 4 inches with all my riding gear on. Now the sag is much, much less with the .42 Race Tech springs. The extra travel really soaks up big, big hits. So much that I attempt to ride most terrain at faster speeds so that the small, fast speed hits (rocky fire roads, etc) are done with the front wheel skipping over the tops of many obsticals.

FWIW: It "feels" like the stiction (that part of the fork travel needed to initiate the forks to start compressing when encountering an obstical) is due to the fork angle. I kinda think it would be better if the bike's forks were raked out just a little and not so much up-and-down / vertical to the obstical.

So how about some other opinions and observations!!!!
Jerry

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Post by KDXGarage »

3. Oil viscosity will affect compression and rebound at all speeds.

5. Why would you not experiment with a two stage stack? Do you mean you - yourself or not to have your tuner do it? Actually, the damping is speed sensitive, not position sensitive, so it would not be related to any stiffening at the midstroke point, assuming the speed of compression remained the same.

sposed be 6. It sounds like you are talking about going from the imporper srping rate for the weight of the rider and bike to the proper rate.
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Post by Indawoods »

The bigest sticking point on mine was the lower clamp torque.
Started trying 18... no way, then 15...getting better... then 12! That was the ticket!
You might think that that is very very light and I agree.... but to get the stiction down thats what I ended up with. I'm not worried that it will come loose and I check it before every ride.

Besides... the top torque makes up for it at 18. :wink:

*All torque specs are Ft/Lbs
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Post by Indawoods »

I went about it thinking "Keep it Light"

Oil 5 wt.
amount 135mm from top... so far so good. (spec is 120mm)
Springs .42 (should be good)

Valving I haven't touched yet.... but will this fall. I can already tell that I need to loose a couple LSC shims.

Might even go for all that super slick super low friction bushings and Gold Valves... who knows what my wallet will look like then.

I would rather figure it out without all the BS but this stuff is cryptic by nature. These tuners cannot tell you, use this shim stack if you weigh this in the woods. I know, I know... it's their job but you'd think SOMEONE woulda let the cat out of the bag by now.
Even the suspensionnetwork is cryptic! I haven't gotten much from them other than a good primer and stock setup information. They should give you a starting point to draw you in... but they don't even give you a taste of what lies behind the steep membership fees if I would decide to be a paying member. The site looks kinda barren to me.

If I ever get this figured out I am writing a book, "Everything you always wanted to know about setting up your suspension and what the tuners don't want you to know!" I think it would sell a fortune!!!!!!!!! Especially if you put it in laymans terms. Are you guys in? :cool:
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Post by jafo »

In my limited experience on motorcycle front end, in my opinion the single biggest cause of stiction at least on my front end was front wheel centering. Making sure the wheel spins freely in the caliper, and centering the wheelin the forks. Centering the wheel was the hardest of the whole job for me. What is exactly center? You can accidently push one side of the forks in a hair to far or out to far and get planty of stiction. You have to be very aware of what your doing when setting the front wheel. I finally loosened the axle clamps just enough to let the forks go where they should be by pushing down on the front end with the front brake on. I kind of pushed it down two to three times to get the forks properly aligned to where they were straight up and down. Then Inspected the where the front rotoe was in the caliper. If it was centered which it was, then I took a look at the front wheel and compaired it to the center of the lower clap to make sure the wheel was in center of the forks. All's good now.

Ski, have a question on that forkslyk. Will that stuff work properly with seal savers? Another thing, would seal savers cause an amount of stiction?


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Post by KDXGarage »

IndaWoods, just try about 100 different things and take notes. You will start noticing things you like and don't like.

Yes, I actually searched and even looked through half of the threads that came up (OK, 2 out of 4), but Indawoods, do you have bladders in your forks?

Thanks,
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Post by Indawoods »

No Jason... no I don't. From an review I read on a '03 KDX 250, it specifically stated that for 03 the bladders were scrapped and the forks were completely redesigned!

So, that's written in stone no? :?
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Post by KDXGarage »

Yeah, sandstone. :mrgreen:

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Post by Indawoods »

MXOffroad.com wrote:To accommodate the balance of the new frame, the 48mm Kayaba fork has been completely revamped, eliminating the bladder system to provide more responsive fork action.
http://www.off-road.com/dirtbike/machin ... /kawasaki/


Also from that article:

48mm Upside-Down Cartridge Fork

-Fork offset increased from 22 to 25mm for sharper cornering performance

-New damping mechanism eliminates bladders

-Bump rubbers replace the oil-lock method, improving bottoming characteristics

-New oil level and fork tubes raised 10mm in tripleclamps, improving fork action

-Triple Clamps - Thinner wall thickness reduces weight

-Steering shaft 6mm longer to match longer steering head pipe

-Top triple clamp pinch bolts thread from rear, eliminating interference with number plate
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Post by KDXGarage »

Ah ha. Thanks for the info.
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Post by KDXer »

My tuner is trippin then. He told me that the forks I got through Ski had Race Tech springs, Gold valves, "bladder removed with midvalve replacement".... Now I'm even more confused. Maybe I got 02 forks instead of 03's. Hmmmmmmmmm.....
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